View Full Version : Starting quant career in asia
DingDong
12-03-2007, 05:19 AM
Is there any disadvantage in starting one's quant career in Asia, in particular in HK, right out of a phd? Do they do enough interesting work in HK? My eventual goal is to return to Asia, but I am wondering if it is wiser to get some experience in NY first? I have offers both in NY and HK, and am having a hard time trying to decide. Any advice is most welcome!
First of all, I repeatedly telling people that giving advice advice to someone is a dangerous task. Please view my comment as a general opinion. You do have to decide.
First of all, are you from Hongkong? If you are from Hongkong, you should know HK well enough to decide your choice.
Getting some experiences in US is not a bad idea because you can always move back to HK. Again, if you decide to settle down in HK then going back early may help to build up your network. It is all depend what you want to do. If your final destination is in trading, then I probably will go back now. otherwise you can try out US first with more exposures.
In my opion, HK is quite advance in terms of derivatives trading. So long as you can make enough money as you wish, living in US or HK is the same. I personally prefer to live in HK because of my current network and HK is fun. Please do not forget the Greater China.
Here is some info I found
I think the three financial centres within Asia of Hongkong, Singapore and Australia is the place to be in. Most of the foreign banks, IBs and hedge funds are located either in Hongkong or Singapore where there are tax incentives for them to set up there. Currently, Singapore seems to be winning in the bid for FIs to locate there with notably several major banks/IBs recently, Barcap, Merrill, Credit Suisse, UBS shifting global operations into Singapore. As a result, there is a shortfall of quality staffing such as quants and risk managers to fulfil this requirement. Salaries here are lower than those in Nyk, London and to a certain extent, Hongkong. But the lower cost of living makes up for it.
In my personal opinion, I think the quant situation here is improving with more qualified quants locating to the far east and dealing with emerging markets here. You can get a feel of the FIs from the website of the MAS (the regulators here) at www.mas.gov.sg
If you want to get a feel of life here in Singapore, you can surf through ww.expatsingapore.com
Or the Signapore government website, check out under "Non resident" www.singapore.gov.sg
Unfortunately, there does not seemed to be a specific HH that caters for quants or quant type of work. I suggest you looked into Monster.com.sg - More jobs for Singapore (www.monster.com.sg), www.morganmckinley.com check out asia category. or Jobs & Career Advice at Michael Page (www.michaelpage.com.sg) or give the guys at Chrisallensearch.com a call..
Asia itself has a big shortage of quant, risk manager & derivs types. In fact, over the last 2 years or so the number of hedge funds has ballooned in both HK & Singapore - often big global funds setting up offices. Demand for those should remain firm - the problem area is more likely to be in the more general analyst field, since start-ups (a constant source of demand) will be tougher & expansion may slow. There is after all, China & India, fertile ground quant work - which, as commented, should have more focus now
Christian
12-24-2007, 10:48 AM
Where are you from, DingDong?
I don't where is your origin. However, if you want to make more money and probably have your own business >> stay in HK.
If you want to work in derivatives and being a professional....and have a not so stressful lifestyle >> Singapore.
Australia >> market is too small. The market is more for equity trading than derivatives.:)
Is there any disadvantage in starting one's quant career in Asia, in particular in HK, right out of a phd? Do they do enough interesting work in HK? My eventual goal is to return to Asia, but I am wondering if it is wiser to get some experience in NY first? I have offers both in NY and HK, and am having a hard time trying to decide. Any advice is most welcome!
Is there any disadvantage in starting one's quant career in Asia, in particular in HK, right out of a phd? Do they do enough interesting work in HK? My eventual goal is to return to Asia, but I am wondering if it is wiser to get some experience in NY first? I have offers both in NY and HK, and am having a hard time trying to decide. Any advice is most welcome!
I've seen very good quants & risk managers at my work place moving to Asia within the last year. Also, a professor of one of our classes constantly traveled to Asia to do his business. He often told us great stories about how deals are done over there using all kinds of interesting exotics. If I have to choose, I'd pick Asia since I think this is where it'll get very interesting!
A lot of sites used to advertise jobs in Japan
http://careerforum.net/index.asp?lang=E
Welcome To Wall Street Associates (http://www.wallstreetjapan.com/)
http://www.careercross.com/en/
Vic_Siqiao
12-25-2007, 12:39 PM
yes, ur experiences in NY are of course more valuable, which help u in ur future career in Asia
The game plan for most people with Far East career inspiration seems to be get a couple of years of experience on Wall Street before they move back East. I don't think you can find the kind of entry-level jobs right out of MFE in Asia as you can find in the US. Even working for Goldman Singapore is not anywhere working for Goldman NYC in term of quantitative positions.
Even working for Goldman Singapore is not anywhere working for Goldman NYC in term of quantitative positions.
I'm not so sure about this. How did you come to this conclusion? I would think that they'd send their best people to new markets, new businesses, etc. so if you're working with these people it'll be such great opportunities.
I'm not so sure about this. How did you come to this conclusion? I would think that they'd send their best people to new markets, new businesses, etc. so if you're working with these people it'll be such great opportunities.
From reading the posts by headhunters who cover quantitative recruiting in Asia and US. I think your point is not contradicting my point essentially. My point is it's easier to find a quantitative position with GS NYC than GS Singapore
When GS (I use GS for example, not because I know how they work ;) ) sends their best people, they send business managers, S&T people, not necessarily hard core quants oversea. Again, these are internal transfers and largely not in technical positions. I'm talking about entry level quantitative positions. I hardly see any positions available for MFE students in Asia compared to tons in London, NYC.
My firm has offices all over the place but as far as I can tell, the quantitative groups are in NYC and London. I don't know if any firm has their core quantitative groups in Asia
When GS (I use GS for example, not because I know how they work ;) ) sends their best people, they send business managers, S&T people, not necessarily hard core quants oversea. Again, these are internal transfers and largely not in technical positions.
I agree with you, but I think they do send people with strong quant. skills as well (probably not a fresh graduate though). One of the veteran quants/modelers that I used to interact with is moving to Asia soon. Maybe things are different at diff. companies.
I hardly see any positions available for MFE students in Asia compared to tons in London, NYC.
This could be the case now but I think this will probably change. It's hard to believe that as financial activities grow in the region, the demand won't follow. ;)
Search Quantfinancejobs probably you find the ad for Asian quant jobs.
NYC and London are still the hubs because quant things are still new in Asia.
HK and SG definitely have the jobs. For one thing, for newbies are better armed with
famous schools' MFE. Asian is different from US or UK. If you don't have connection, you've better armed with "brand".
What you know is good but not important. Who you know is important and probably makes you rich in Asia.
What you know is good but not important. Who you know is important and probably makes you rich in Asia.
Unfortunately, this is true in some part of Asia. Political connection and under the table envelop are essential to get in the door/keep the job/get the best job
I'm curious to know how many people would be willing to leave their NYC post to Asia for less money. Would an exotic adventure worth a reduction in salary for you ?
How could you know they get less when they get relocate to Asia? As far as I know HK and SG are paying well too. It is also great to get some experiences from Asia. Like my maths teacher used to tell me, one can't do the maths does not mean other people can't do it. One can't make it in a location, doesn't mean other can't do it, too. I would ask myself..do I have the gut to make it big?
I think we need connection regardless is in Asia, US or anywhere. The one thing separate a businessman and an employee is the gut to leave his or her comfort zone, then strive to make it big. Please bear in mind that QF is not the only way to make a fortune. Even one has good models, this person still needs some angels to fund the trades. To fund these trades are all about business connections. If we don't know people and no connections, how to trade? Unless someone strikes a lottery or some fortunes fall from the sky. Chinese have plenty of funds.
It is about gut...21st century is about Asia even Treasury Secretary mentioned it.
Unfortunately, this is true in some part of Asia. Political connection and under the table envelop are essential to get in the door/keep the job/get the best job
I'm curious to know how many people would be willing to leave their NYC post to Asia for less money. Would an exotic adventure worth a reduction in salary for you ?
I may just want to add more information. Banks like Merill Lynch, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Lehman, Bear Stearns and other multinationals only want to hire branded schools graduates in China otherwise these graduates have to be Tsinghua University or Peking University.
So, if no connections then getting a brand is a must. Many people get pissed off with the current situation in Asia in particular in China. Chinese are very brand minded now. My apology to all the Chinese friends in this forum. I think this is a fact and we can't avoid it. The rich is richer and the poor is getting poorer.
Vic_Siqiao
12-29-2007, 12:48 AM
I may just want to add more information. Banks like Merill Lynch, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Lehman, Bear Stearns and other multinationals only want to hire branded schools graduates in China otherwise these graduates have to be Tsinghua University or Peking University.
So, if no connections then getting a brand is a must. Many people get pissed off with the current situation in Asia in particular in China. Chinese are very brand minded now. My apology to all the Chinese friends in this forum. I think this is a fact and we can't avoid it. The rich is richer and the poor is getting poorer.
surprised u know so much about China. but it should be noted that graduates from 5-6 top schools in China all have chances to be accepted by big IBs, not only those two u mentioned:)
so where & how can we do research in Asia's job market?
surprised u know so much about China. but it should be noted that graduates from 5-6 top schools in China all have chances to be accepted by big IBs, not only those two u mentioned:)
I like people being nasty. Perhaps you lost touched with your homeland if you are a Chinese or unfortunately you are not from these two Peking or Tsinghua. Please forgive me being rude. I did not say that other universities graduates wouldn't get a job from any investment banks but these two are branded and more IBs like to hire from them.
I know when I put up this statement may hurt Baruch because Baruch is not in the top 10 league but why you care if you are good enough. I believe only people who believe they are inferior may be in this so called insecurity situation will make such remarks.
My belief is that if you are good enough, then convince someone to hire you even you are not from the top 10. I am sure many graduates from Baruch may be or even smarter than the top 10. The only thing is that do you dare enough to borrow hefty loans to start your journey with a top 10 like Stanford or Harvard even you get admitted. You may be academic excellence but successes count on gut...do you have the balls?:)
alain
01-04-2008, 11:20 PM
I like people being nasty. Perhaps you lost touched with your homeland if you are a Chinese or unfortunately you are not from these two Peking or Tsinghua. Please forgive me being rude. I did not say that other universities graduates wouldn't get a job from any investment banks but these two are branded and more IBs like to hire from them.
I know when I put up this statement may hurt Baruch because Baruch is not in the top 10 league but why you care if you are good enough. I believe only people who believe they are inferior may be in this so called insecurity situation will make such remarks.
My belief is that if you are good enough, then convince someone to hire you even you are not from the top 10. I am sure many graduates from Baruch may be or even smarter than the top 10. The only thing is that do you dare enough to borrow hefty loans to start your journey with a top 10 like Stanford or Harvard even you get admitted. You may be academic excellence but successes count on gut...do you have the balls?:)
Ah, what is a top 10 school?
You are talking about perception and believe me, so far on the street, they don't care too much about perception and they are really quick to find out if you are good or not. They just care about how you can make them money. If you make the cash register sing, you are hired.
I don't know anything about Chinese universities so I can't offer my opinion there but I happen to know people from Stanford and Harvard... and as usual, some are good some are bad. I have also been in mutiple schools (I happen to to had 2 graduate degrees and 2 undergraduate degrees for wierd reasons)... and I can tell you that Baruch MFE (at least the our year and the people I have interacted with) has a sense of family, where people care for each other. I didn't see that in any of the other schools I attended in this country.
HR might be interested in whatever ranking is in fashion at the moment but core groups, the one that do the hiring, don't look too much into it.
Also, I have seen that students from outside of US have formed an opinion about US schools. I think that's perfectly inline with marketing and with the history of the schools. That adds fuel to the fired. For instance if I tell you that Haveford College is better than Stanford in my opinion, you might be wondering "what the heck is Haverford?" Check it out.
With due respect to Professor Dan and Baruch, if you are well qualified and the cost of studying at one of Ivy League universities or any Top 10 that perceived by the public in your chosen field is the same as Baruch for the sake of MFE......be honest...will you still choose Baruch if you get admitted to Courant, Haas and Baruch at the same time?
Sadly say that most people perceive that top 10 schools are better for some unknown reasons or unacceptable meanings, I would probably start from the pool of graduates from the top 10 schools first. The cost of hiring is high, why not cut down some filtering costs if the hiring cost is the same for elite schools and the normal schools.
Similarly, if BMW is at the same cost of Toyota..which one will you buy? Allas...you can tell me I will buy Toyota because I love Japanese car.
One more thing, if Baruch has built up the strengths in FE sure all these IBs will hire at Baruch. Meanwhile, I think HR will still pick the Ivy League first. Please do not forget that most businesses feel more confident to deal with someone from Ivy Leagues if they have no ideas about a person for the start.
"...Mr. Chairman, let's me introduce my colleague Mr. XYZ who has just our firm from Stanford University...."
"...Mr. Chairman, let's me introduce my colleague Mr. XYZ who has just our firm from ABC University...."
Which one sounds better? ABC or Stanford? It is not only China. I think it applied to many locations. Similarly, Chelsea Clinton has no background in finance but she got the job with one of the prominent hedge fund. Why? My dad is the former US President. That's good enough. Finance is all about creating brand and buzz.....can you deny?
alain
01-05-2008, 12:10 AM
Similarly, if BMW is at the same cost of Toyota..which one will you buy? Allas...you can tell me I will buy Toyota because I love Japanese car.
Have you ever driven a BMW? I have driven BMWs and Mercedes and I wouldn't change any of my Acuras for a BMW or a Benz. German cars are too heavy for my liking.... and Porsche is too small for me... I don't fit in them :(
Errata:
"...Mr. Chairman, let's me introduce my colleague Mr. XYZ who has just joined our firm from Stanford University...."
"...Mr. Chairman, let's me introduce my colleague Mr. XYZ who has just joined our firm from ABC University...."
I used to have Volvo and Range Rover but I love BMW. I don't like Benz. I have a BMW 328.
Have you ever driven a BMW? I have driven BMWs and Mercedes and I wouldn't change any of my Acuras for a BMW or a Benz. German cars are too heavy for my liking.... and Porsche is too small for me... I don't fit in them :(
Cars are cheap in US compare to Asia. Warren Buffet can dry any car if he likes because he is a brand already. New kids in business may get a benz. Perhaps you earn enough like Mr. Buffer, any car will do.
alain
01-05-2008, 12:15 AM
Similarly, Chelsea Clinton has no background in finance but she got the job with one of the prominent hedge fund.
keep in mind she was not doing Quant stuff.
Again, she has no finance background. Who cares about quant in this case? She probably makes more than any quant. Relationship does matter.
I do like to post a challenge here. Given that the current confidence from the floor that FE and QF models can make millions of dollars from the street. How long can you make a million after your MFE? Would you ever be a multi-millionaire with your modeling?
Or you people skills and business connection.
keep in mind she was not doing Quant stuff.
Vic_Siqiao
01-05-2008, 06:35 PM
I like people being nasty. Perhaps you lost touched with your homeland if you are a Chinese or unfortunately you are not from these two Peking or Tsinghua. Please forgive me being rude. I did not say that other universities graduates wouldn't get a job from any investment banks but these two are branded and more IBs like to hire from them.
I know when I put up this statement may hurt Baruch because Baruch is not in the top 10 league but why you care if you are good enough. I believe only people who believe they are inferior may be in this so called insecurity situation will make such remarks.
My belief is that if you are good enough, then convince someone to hire you even you are not from the top 10. I am sure many graduates from Baruch may be or even smarter than the top 10. The only thing is that do you dare enough to borrow hefty loans to start your journey with a top 10 like Stanford or Harvard even you get admitted. You may be academic excellence but successes count on gut...do you have the balls?:)
i am so so UNFORTUNATELY not from the two u mentioned.
i am so so UNFORTUNATELY not from the two u mentioned.
I think people from China know that only the top 10% get into Peking and Tsinghua. This is the main reason why they become targeted schools. It does not mean that other graduates can't get a job if they are good enough like yourself.
Good luck and I hope you find a job from the street.....to prove you are not from the above two will outperform the rest.=D>
Vic_Siqiao
01-06-2008, 07:21 PM
I think people from China know that only the top 10% get into Peking and Tsinghua. This is the main reason why they become targeted schools. It does not mean that other graduates can't get a job if they are good enough like yourself.
Good luck and I hope you find a job from the street.....to prove you are not from the above two will outperform the rest.=D>
i ranked, and almost all my college mates, in top 0.3% in college entrance exam. Peking and Tsinghua collects top 0.1-0.2%, but not every one.
Good on you. Frankly speaking, in China or in any part of Asia....I believe even in other part of the world. Academic excellence does not always guarantee success. In particular, China and Asian region do count on who you know and your relationship management. I believe marketing ourselves is very important. I believe only very few can make it through like Christopher Gartner (Pursuit of Happyness). Finance is a money game. Building Fame and celebrity status are very important to help raising fund for your quant or investment models.
Technical skills alone will make good salary only not wealth.;);)
i ranked, and almost all my college mates, in top 0.3% in college entrance exam. Peking and Tsinghua collects top 0.1-0.2%, but not every one.
This is a good time for financial professionals who are fluent in Chinese, Japanese or other Asian languages.
Why? Consider: Big Japanese banks may pump billions of dollars into struggling Wall Street firms, says the Times of London. The trade deficit with China continues to break records and Chinese markets attract U.S. investors worried about volatile stocks. South Korea's economy continues to be strong, as is Taiwan's.
Though there are openings in the San Francisco area, there also are opportunities in New York from both U.S. and Asian firms. Conversely, there also is a demand for candidates in Asia as well, recruiters say.
"We have had difficulties in the States finding bilingual candidates, but it has gotten better," says Andy Hsu, a manager at recruiter Michael Page International in New York. "The only way we can find quality bilingual candidates is through a lot of referrals."
Though being fluent in Asian languages is a plus, it isn't a necessity to get hired by Asian firms since Japanese and Chinese are among the most difficult languages for native English speakers to learn. Ames Gross, president of Pacific Bridge, a recruiting firm specializing in Asia, points out it takes 10 years to become fluent in Chinese.
But candidates looking to work for Asian firms, or firms doing business there, should familiarize themselves with Asian culture and business customs. "Otherwise, the candidate will not succeed," says Bob Kobayashi, a senior partner with Nosal Partners, LLC., a San Francisco-based recruiting firm.
Working overseas may be the ticket for adventurous types or foreign nationals who want to return home. The appeal is understandable: While the U.S. teeters on the brink of recession, China's economy expanded more than 11 percent for the fourth straight quarter, says Bloomberg News. Japan's economy continues to expand, as well, though growth is moderating.
"When you have this kind of growth, more and more people are interested in working in the industry in China, Hong Kong and Singapore," observes Gross.
http://news.efinancialcareers.com/NEWS_ITEM/newsItemId-12646
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